Re: MSNBC (Oberg) - Deadly space lessons go unheeded

From: Fred J. McCall (fmccall_at_earthlink.net)
Date: 01/30/05 

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 04:10:56 GMT

JazzMan <No_Spam@airmail.net> wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:>
:> JazzMan <No_Spam@airmail.net> wrote:
:>
:> :Kelly McDonald
:> :>
:> :> >World Health Organization. Unlike the
:> :> >single-payer system in Canada where everybody
:> :> >has health insurance and no one sees a bill
:> :>
:> :> Uhmm, I see a bill every March when I pay my taxes, then there is the
:> :> Ontario Health Care Premium, OHIP, prescriptions, ambulance, eye
:> :> exams, dentist, oh ya, and you can't have a checkup more than once a
:> :> year unless you pay for it.
:> :>
:> :> I count my lucky stars that my wife and eye have excellent coverage
:> :> through our employers
:> :>
:> :> I cut my finger a few months back, I could wait for the doctor to
:> :> freeze my finger and put in stiches, or PAY $10 to have him glue it in
:> :> 30 seconds.
:> :
:> :Hehehe, here in Texas if you didn't have insurance, and one
:> :in four working Texans doesn't have and can't afford insurance,
:> :if you went to the emergency room for a laceration requiring
:> :stitches you'd be looking at a couple of thousand dollars,
:> :maybe more, that you would instantly owe,
:>
:> Preposterous! I'd suggest you need to inject just a bit of reality
:> into your outrageous claims about medical costs.
:
:Not so preposterous my friend. I lacerated my finger four years
:ago, required nine stitches, anaesthetic, antibiotics, and tetanus
:innoculation, but luckily no tendon damage and minimal nerve damage.
:Total cost to me at the time was $675 out of pocket, that was the
:then deductible of $500 plus copay of 20% of the remaining $875
:of the $1,375 cost. When's the last time you lacerated a finger?
:Do you even know how to use tools? That opposing thumb is good for
:something sometimes, you know. Hehehe...

You're either a liar or incredibly stupid.

"My husband is self-employed, and has no insurance. He severely cut
his hand and required multiple stitches. ... When we received our copy
of the bill, it showed that the bill was over $300.00, ..."

http://www.careentree.com/programs.asp?$SESSIONID={0612C293-CE18-4FE1-A6B1-428857C990DB}

"According to the Life and Health Insurance Foundation for Education,
the average doctor's fee for stitches to close a minor cut on your
head — not including anesthesia, hospital, or laboratory fees — $334."

http://info.insure.com/health/consumerdriven.html

Do I really need to go on? I think we now know which one you are.

:> Just as a hint, stitches will run you about $300, not "a couple of
:> thousand dollars, maybe more".
:
:Ah, yes, perhaps I should get you in contact with the hospital
:and the treating physicians, maybe you can get me some of my
:money back since you're all knowing in this field and all.

Well, you certainly should get in touch with SOMEBODY, because you got
taken, son.

:> :I have what's considered fairly decent insurance through my
:> :employer, coverage that I could in no way afford on my own
:> :since it runs upwards of $6,000/year, and even with that my
:> :annual out of pocket costs are over $3,000. That's a $1,200
:> :deductible, and the rest is 20% copay up to a maximum copay
:> :of $1,800 in any given year.
:>
:> What the hell is wrong with you? That says that your annual medical
:> costs are over $10k/year!
:
:It most certainly does not!

It certainly does. Do the math to back up your own statement.

"... my annual out of pocket costs are over $3,000".

You then go on to describe your coverage as requiring a $1200
deductible (which you presumably pay if your "annual out of pocket
costs are over $3,000", leaving you $1800 in additional expenses to
arrive at "...annual out of pocket costs are over $3,000". You have a
20% copay to a maximum of $1800 per year, by your own words. In order
to have to pay that (and arrive at $3,000) your additional medical
expenses would have to be AT LEAST $9,000 per year.

:What it says is that my employer pays $6k for my health insurance,
:and then my maximum out of pocket expenses in any given year could
:be as much as $3,000.

That's not what you said. You said "...annual out of pocket costs are
over $3,000". You didn't say "could be if I have a really bad year".
You said "annual out of pocket costs ARE over $3,000".

I think it's pretty clear at this point that you're merely a lying
troll.

:> :But for every three of people like me there is a person
:> :who has no coverage at all. These people frequently either
:> :delay seeking care for urgent medical conditions such as
:> :chest pain and strange lumps, or just don't go to a doctor
:> :at all.
:>
:> And most of them never need medical care, so that seems appropriate.
:
:Oh sure, like I said, nobody ever needs medical care, checkups
:for hidden illnesses such as cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes,
:etc. Oh, no, nobody ever gets sick in your perfect little world.
:Where is that world again, exactly? :)

I'd suggest you go back and read what *I* wrote rather than your
distortion of it. I'd also suggest that you actually learn something
about this field if you want to bleat about it.

Only some 5% of people requiring medical care don't have some form of
health coverage. That big number of uncovered folks that gets bandied
about by folks like you is the number without insurance WHETHER THEY
NEED CARE OR NOT. Lots of people don't carry insurance THROUGH
CHOICE. If you're relatively young and in good health, this is a
sound decision.

:> :The question really boils down to one simple premise: Is
:> :universal access to quality health care a definition for
:> :civilization?
:>
:> No.
:
:Just no? No, like we're not civilized? No, like access to
:health care is only for the wealthy and rich? No, like humans
:get treated worse than cattle in Texas?

No, as in I answered the question you asked. Universal access to
quality health care is *NOT* "a definition for civilization". If that
wasn't the question you wanted answered, you shouldn't have asked it.

:> :I think so, but there are many, many people
:> :out there who don't.
:>
:> Great. Then how about you pony up that $6k per year to buy that
:> insurance for all those folks out of YOUR pocket?
:
:Well, actually, the per-person cost of universal health care
:would go down, not up. If everyone had health insurance my
:employer's contribution would likely be much, much less. How
:so you ask? Simple! If getting regular checkups and care without
:fear of financial catastrophe were the norm then people would be
:more likely to get checkups and care for the illnesses that
:inevitably strike everyone, eventually. Care in the early stages
:of just about every single disease costs much, much less than
:heroic care needed due to delayed discovery and treatment.
:But you say that uninsured people don't participate in the system!
:Oh, but yes they do. They wait until the chest pains are unbearable,
:the kidney problems are incapacitating, the lump is huge and
:the pain is tremendous before they go to the hospital. In your
:perfect world these people would be turned out to the street to
:die like animals, with no cost to the insured. In the real world
:they get treated, expensively, and the hospital has to fold those
:costs into their charges to everyone else. So you see, that $6k is
:already paying for others care, the difference being that that
:care is much more expensive due to its tardiness.

You're merely fantasizing above. Once you learn something about how
medical insurance works, go on to learn something about how economics
works and how people behave.

:> :Invariably the people who don't have
:> :a vested financial interest in preventing uninsured people
:> :from having access to health care.
:>
:> You mean a vested interest like not thinking I should have to pay for
:> someone else's irresponsibility?
:
:You're already paying for it in taxes, perhaps you missed that
:point?

Then everyone is covered and you can stop whining.

:You must be young with parents and siblings still alive
:and healthy, because you certainly are clueless. Oh, and part
:of being in a society is contributing to its support. It's not
:"your" money, my friend.

And here we see it. What people earn isn't 'theirs'. It belongs to
fools like JazzMan to distribute to non-contributors to society.

:It seems that you'd like to reap all
:the benefits of our society without contributing anything to
:its success.

I'll trade you tax bills any time you like.

:That makes you a freeloader. Would you please do
:us a favor and go put a bullet through your head? Oh, and put
:it through the frontal lobes so that your organs can be used
:to help someone who deserves it.

Goodbye, Mr Troll. We're done here.

See you never.

<plonk> 

-- 
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
 soul with evil."
                                      -- Socrates

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