Re: overnight weather satellite pics?

George wrote:
> Umm, the hurricane was by and large, not the problem. The problem was the
> levee failure and resulting catastrophic flood after the hurricane. And
> where are you going to go after the flod has already arrived, when you are
> in the thick of it?

These were predicted. But politicians did not set the wheel in motion
BEFORE the hurricane to bring in the big artillery to deal with this
ASAP. Even yesterday, when bush made an address at 17:00, it was hoped
he would officially involve the US military, but he didn't, prefering to
wait intil the state governors get off their asses and admit their state
reserves aren't enough and need the big artillery from the US military.

The US military should have staged its people and more importantly its
equipment so that it should start to be there within hours of the winds
dying down, especially amphitious mechicles to navigate the streets.


> And if you are 400 lbs and on dialysis, and or are 80 years old, poor and
> hard of hearing? Every person is different, and they all stayed for
> different reasons.

Including the 300 people who were left stranded at the airport with
nowhere to go when the airport prematurely closed. When you declare a
mandatory evacuation, the city should have made use of EVERY POSSIBLE
TRANSPORTATION METHOD instead of closing everything, leaving only abled
bodied people with a car the opportunity to leave.

Again, the military could have brought in large transport aircraft to
ferry people out BEFORE the storm and do the same after. (And yes, the
airport has a fully usable runway).


> This is New Orleans we are talkiing about. There was always the danger of
> flooding. But as with any potential disaster, complacency sets in,
> especially if you've heard it all before, over and over again.

I don't feel bad for the people who chose to stay, especially those with
properties near the oceanfront in missisipi. But i find it unacceptable
that politicians did not provide evacuation methods for those without
cars.

Generators and fueld should have been brought in to hospitals BEFORE the
storm and moved to higher floors. One of the hospitals had generator on
2nd floor, below the predicted worse case scenario flooding level. So
they would have known that they are not fully safe.

> You are right. In New Orleans the water didn't rise suddenly. I crept up
> in the wee hours of the morning after the hurricane, when everyone had
> finally dozed off to sleep after battling a terrifying hurricane for hours
> on end. Most likely never saw it coming at all.

I disagree. If you sleep and cool water creeps in, do you really think
you will stay asleep and drown ? Considering that they had been warned
this could happen. And considering that even I, far away from this, had
heard that people had been told that if they go in their attic, they
absolutely need to have an axe to get out or risk drowning, I can't
understand people still going to their attic without an axe. (or going
to the attic in the first place instead of climbing onto roof or
swimming to trees.

> Only 20% of the city is not impacted. What more do you, as a layperson,
> think the media needs to show? They did show the French Quarter, which was
> mostly in good shape until the levee broke.

The question is now what 20% is not impacted, but of the 80%, how much
is still usable, and how much is truly unusable. A house with the water
at its roof is not usable. A house with water at the doorsill is very
much usable. A house with water just on the street isn't impacted, even
if the staellite image shows water in the area.

> Umm, a few centimeters? There is a large tract north of downtown that is
> under more than twenty feet of water.

Yes, and that is sad. But that doesn't mean that all the city is under
20 feet of water.

> Entire neighborhoods are
> flooded to nearly the tops of the roofs.

Is that the same large tract of land north of downtown ? you need to be
very careful about media reports since they assemble their clips to make
it look like the whole city is under 20 feet of water when in fact they
are just showing clips taken from the same area from different
locations/angles that make it look like each clip is taken of a totally
different area.

Remember that the media outlets keep showing clips taken from cars
driving around. If the car is there and moving around, it means that it
is isbn't flooded in 20 feet of water, and it also means that the car
isn't stranded in some small area. So there must be areas of New Orleans
which are somewhat functional.

> I don't know what news station
> you've been watching, but they should fire their reporters.

I don't have much respect for CNN. But I only watch them for events
inside the USA such as hurricanes simply because it is fun to watch them
exagerate the situation and purposefully not show the portions of New
Orleans that are still functional. (I am not trying to diminish the
impact of this disaster, but the media should also report on what isn't damaged.)


> The infrastructure is peripheral to saving lives.


No. It is essential to saving lives. Bringing the right assets and
deploying them in a timely fashion is critical. Sri lanka didn't have
fancy assets available. The USA does.

> > The city will progressively return to life.
>
> Not any time soon.

You are greatly underestimating the capability to restore life in a
city. Within 2 weeks, I expect huge progress inside of New Orleans with
many areas restored to livable status. Some areas will take much longer
to restore to livable status.

Once you cleanup the streets from debris, work to restore power, cut off
damages water/gas mains will go quickly. Once people are allowed back,
they can start to empty their homes, tear off gyproc and let house dry
and then refurbish the interior.

The city of Karatha in northern Australia was fully flooded in Januray
1998. But april, when i was there, you didn't really notice much damage,
except for all the pictures of floods posted on every home, and the fact
that the main shopping mall was closed and the food store moved to a
school gym with a curtained area cooled by air conditioners for the produce/fruits.

It took about 1 years to rebuild the main shopping centre. And homes got
refurbished during this time.

The city of Darwin was devastated by cyclone tracy on christmas eve
1974. They evacuated more than 30,000 people, leaving only about 10,000
to rebuild/cleanup. Within one year, the population had returned to
previous levels. This for a city where over 70% of buildings no longer
standing after the cyclone. New Orleans is still standing. It was just a
very bad flood.

> Nope. They need to evacuate everyone. They will never stop the looting
> until they do.

You can't evacuate everyone. It is like trying to remove every mosquito
from a tent. And the people who do stay will then go on looting
rampages, set fires etc etc.

Perhaps they should put more emphasis on fixing the parts that are not
fully underwater and make New Orleans livable, bring in food/water,
portable toilets etc etc.


> You're joking, right? Where are they going to land the 747s at New
> Orleans? There is no power, the runways are damaged, and most importantly,
> no/minimal air traffic control (mostly military now).

The New Orleans airport is not damaged. Planes are already landing there.

Here is another example of exageration:s CNN showing people walking in
water. "Waist and shoulder deep water", yet, you see that it is barely
knee deep and cars are still very visible down to their tires.

> I've seen little evidence of it other than from Britain, France
> (surprisingly), and Britain.

That is a choice made by your government not t publisise the offers of
help from other countries.

> A pointless jesture since the port is out of commission.

I heard that the port did not suffer major damage. And while lack of
power may prevent devices to empty tankers and bulk cargo ships, it
doesn't prevent military ships from docking.

> > In fairness, no country has assets of value which could get there before
> > USA assets.
>
> Cash can be wired.

Cash in't the problem. The problem is politicians not taking the right
decisions early enough. cash will be an issue later on for rebuilding.

> FEMA was on alert. There was no reason to suspect that they would need the
> military immediately.

That is highly debatable. The second the mayor of New Orleans called for
mandatory evacuation, the military shoudl have automatically been
involved, bring in large transport aircraft to help in the evacuation,
and then prepare for the aftermath by starting to move the right
equipment towards the area.

> I completely agree. FEMA has failed miserably because of the delay.

FEMA doesn't have authority to call in the military with the big
artillery. There are just too many layers of people reporting to
different layers. FEMA should be given the right to call in the military
without having to convince some mayor or state governor who would rather
prove that their own people are capable of handling the problem on their own.

FEMA and NOAA had made plenty of warnings that this was a potentially
catastrophic event with major flooding etc etc.

> Umm, those long bridges are all destroyed.

Yep. exactly why it isn't wise to plan for truck based relief stationed
far enough away. New Orleans isn't Florida. Had FEMA had automatic
access to military assets, it could have begun staging relief from say
Houston or other city and airlift as soon as runway was clear in New Orleans.


After the Tsunami, the USA (and France, Britain) immediatly dispatched
their aircraft carriers and other ships to the region. CNN is showing
one aircraft carrier only now (4 days after) leaving port and it will
take 5 more days to get to the gulf. The order to sail should have been
given the moment the mayor declared the need to evacuate the city.
.

Relevant Pages

  • NBC: New Orleans
    ... I found this article from a New Orleans paper while looking for information ... marked more than just the wake of Hurricane Georges. ... margin separating the city from mass destruction. ... foot of the top of the levees. ...
    (rec.music.artists.springsteen)
  • Re: How the FEMA "help" is ongoing
    ... Two days after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans, ... now 48 hours without electricity, running water, plumbing. ... prescriptions and fled the City. ... scores of buses were pouring in to the City. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic)
  • NYT: Breakdowns Marked Path From Hurricane to Anarchy
    ... Breakdowns Marked Path From Hurricane to Anarchy ... Ms. Blanco burst into the state's emergency center in Baton Rouge. ... They were an obvious linchpin for evacuating a city where nearly ... the crisis in New Orleans deepened because of a virtual ...
    (alt.politics.bush)
  • Re: Things becoming a little clearer?
    ... >> Two days after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans, ... >> electricity, running water, plumbing, and the milk, yogurt, and cheeses ... >> be found to ferry people out of the city. ... The buses and the other resources must have been invisible, ...
    (alt.gathering.rainbow)
  • Re: Things becoming a little clearer?
    ... >> Two days after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans, ... >> electricity, running water, plumbing, and the milk, yogurt, and cheeses ... >> be found to ferry people out of the city. ... The buses and the other resources must have been invisible, ...
    (alt.gathering.rainbow)