Re: Worst times ever for eBay microscopes

Hello, Edward:

Good points. - Let me elaborate on Paypal for a few moments. Using
Paypal protects the credit card information from sellers. So far so
good. Paypal is also quick in pulling cash back out of the seller's
bank account and Paypal offers some sort of free "damage" insurance.
Almost great. - But why should the seller not transfer the funds via
cash withdrawal from the account before Paypal was able to try to get
the money back? Why should a seller even accept Paypal? - Nevertheless,
using Paypal is most certainly better than giving the credit card
information to the seller. I thought that's what you recommended in
your last post.

But again, neither Paypal, eBay nor any credit card company is legally
obligated to do anything. It's a legal contract between buyer and
seller and a legal contract between the shipper and who ever authorized
him to ship the package. Everything else is just services that are
neither legally binding nor in any way useable as credible evidence in
court. Only because Paypal refunded money does not mean that the seller
broke the contract. Again, which action is recommended depends on the
seller in question. eBay is just the gate. The buyer has to walk
through it at his very own risk. There are no general recommendations
such as suggesting Paypal for all eBay purchases. There are some very
trustworthy sellers, who sell great microscope parts, that, for obvious
reasons, do not accept Paypal.

Cheers,

Gregor


Edward Hennessey wrote:
<Gregor.Overney@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1162624403.000634.32880@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Regarding your statement "Only use your credit card for Ebay
purchases"
and the part about pulling the plug on a payment using the
"power" of
Paypal and/or a credit card company, I have to raise some
concerns.

Gregor:

Your concerns are welcomed.

In this case, you recommend one should provide a seller who
cheats on
eBay with credit card number and residential address?

If you pay with a credit card through Paypal, my clear
instruction from informed others is that the seller doesn't get
your credit card number. Anytime you list your contact
particulars on Ebay and anytime anyone ships to you, you are free
to specify an address and to think about the opportunities that
may provide the seller in many circumstances which I have no time
or inclination to cover here.

- Sometimes, I
hear that people have problems fighting with their credit card
companies to proof that certain charges on their credit card
statements
are incorrect. I do not believe much in consumer protection
provided by
credit card companies. It sounds good on paper, but it is less
than
useful in court.

Frankly, from my own sour experience, in some cases quite
different from the kind we are now discussing, I fully agree with
you. The reality is that the bigger customer you are of a credit
card company, the more attention you will get. No surprise there.
As well, reports again from aware sources also recommend American
Express as an entity known for its ferocious customer support in
dealing with merchants in all situations. So, the "personality"
of the credit card company is an additional factor in buyer
protection.

But in the variety of instances we are discussing, when the kind
of documentation previously indicated as essential is obtained,
the disappointed buyer will have, in balance,
an exceptionally strong hand to work from.

Do you believe in the merits of Paypal?

I would like to believe in a market full of competitive services
that offer better
results. Find me an alternative. Paypal has its problems which
are almost endlessly beaten to death on the Internet. But from
the one time I talked with them over a snafu, I found that issue
amenably resolved after a clear and rationally detailed
explanation of my difficulty.

I don't. Is it not possible
that once one pulled the plug on a credit or Paypal payment,
one is
actually legally obligated to pay damages if one fails to proof
in
court that one has been cheated?

The idea is to have proof. If your credit card agency agrees with
what evidence you
demonstrate and annuls the payment, the seller has an uphill
fight. And if Paypal later
comes in and threatens to penalize the seller by voiding his
ability to use their services in all the ensuing profitable
transactions he forsees because of an infraction you have
established according to Paypal's satisfaction, do you thing the
seller will be foaming for a fight with the buyer after the buyer
returns the unsatisfactory item in question?

If the merchandise you got wasn't received as described and as
advertisments and correspondence warranted, it is not your fault
as a buyer. If the purchase was broken in shipment, you will be
amused to know that the Ebay seller in standard transactions is
legally responsible in any case whether insurance was obtained or
not or whether he explicitly offered that as an option to the
buyer and the buyer declined to pay for it. Check Ebay and follow
up with newsgroup searches. You are supposed to get what you paid
for and if you don't, tough for the seller.

And, usually, one must proof this in
courts local to the seller's residence. CA for CA, WA for WA,
etc.

Can you cite specific, authoritative URLs and chapter and verse
here? I would welcome those specifics.

Regarding prematurely pulling the plug on a credit card payment
offers
the seller the option to pay $80-$200 to a collection agency
and, at
least for months, can mess up someone's credit rating quite a
bit.
Moreover, to proof that a part was actually flawed, one must
provide
statements made by expert witnesses, which must show up in
court. Now
that costs a bundle.

And going to court would throwing good money after bad for a
person who faces
overwhelming logical oppositon. I would like to have concrete
citations again illustrating the prevalence of disgruntled
sellers taking their time to go to court, paying court costs,
paying for service of subpoenas and subpoenas duces tecum,
risking the possibility or
probabilty of not being able to serve the other litigant in time
for the court date, etcetera,
after a credit card company and Ebay or Paypal has logged in on
the side of a buyer of
defective merchandise. Are there nutcases who would find this a
channel for their outrage? Sure. Would I love to face an enraged
nutcase in court with a calm broadside of
insuperable evidence? Absolutely. And would I be content with the
slim-to-none chances of ever having to experience this very, very
unlikely happenstance? You bet.

If one gets cheated, one must carefully estimate the cost
involved to
get back out of this mess. Pulling the plug on a payment can
lead to
even more serious problems.

If that is your conclusion in general, for all the reasons in my
two allied posts, I demur.
But if your concerns have not been diminished, you may want to
consider retaining escrow services available at an additional
cost to assuage them.

I will, however, make an addition to a statement in my prior post
and solicit other ideas in addition. When photographing the box
and unpacked item as delivered, it would be wise to get some
corroboratory indicators in the picture outside of the time stamp
on a digital camera. If the deliveryman has a company or agency
ID that can be placed in the pictures, that would be excellent
when accompanied by notation of a name. If the ID is unavailable
or inconvenient another possibility for an indicator item
distinctive of a deliveryman's presence would be, say, the
electronic logging terminal (perhaps with pertinently displayed
details) that many private express companies use or photographing
the merchandise against the background of the delivery vehicle.
Another idea would be to incorporate a dated newspaper front page
in certain circumstances. Can anyone suggest other items for
inclusion to distinctly show the presence of the deliveryman or
other important particulars? Other ideas would be to ask the
deliveryman to hold the objects for photographing or to place a
hand in the picture but if anyone has additional constructive
remarks here, they would be welcome.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Ebay sellers can no longer leave negative or neutral feedback for buyers!
    ... As soon as payment is made, the buyer should get a computerized positive. ... How about a buyer that reverses a credit card transaction via PayPal and you (as the seller) loose almost $4000USD? ... Three months later they complain to their credit card company that I sold them a used game and they got an anonymous 'inspector' to verify that "yes, that certainly is a used game they showed me". ...
    (rec.games.pinball)
  • Re: Worst times ever for eBay microscopes
    ... you recommend one should provide a seller who ... If you pay with a credit card through Paypal, ... of the credit card company is an additional factor in buyer ... And going to court would throwing good money after bad for a ...
    (sci.techniques.microscopy)
  • Re: Beware of PayPal as a seller
    ... PayPal account. ... That way, as a buyer, I have recourse via my credit card company if the ... Since I'm not a seller, I've not used these guys, and there are others: ...
    (rec.models.railroad)
  • Re: Guitar - shipping abroad
    ... As a seller, you have the money in your possession, so where is the risk? ... If all the other safeguards I mentioned are in place, i.e. carriage insurance and signed-for delivery, where is the problem for the seller? ... In answer to your point re stolen credit card, I believe the credit card company would have to pursue the fraudster for the amount paid, not the seller. ... I had a buyer pay by Paypal but direct debit had been cancelled by the buyer so Paypal could not get the funds,did Paypal do go after the buyer or take the funds back from me?? ...
    (uk.people.consumers.ebay)
  • Re: Morgan dollar 1894-P going cheap (???)
    ... Are you directing your comments to me? ... Advising someone to use a credit card with PayPal, ... a seller, you should communicate with the seller before doing anything ... Sure you can reverse the payment. ...
    (rec.collecting.coins)